In response to the rather large response I got from the girls, I decided to throw this out to the guys, in the interest of being fair. (but not balanced) I got a much lower turnaround level, but here are the guys that were brave enough to take the plunge.

Okay, so after the conversations I've had since yesterday, and one in particular that moppety & I are having, I hit on what I want to do for the next ND.com update. In the course of talking to moppety, I remarked, "But don't guys know that we [females] do that? Hasn't anyone told them?"

Which led to the following - gathering a group of women together to assemble a small guide of basic facts to know & grow on when it comes to the art of men trying to navigate the muddied waters of dealing with women. Now originally this started as something for the girls to do, but I decided it was only fair to allow the males in the group to have their say.

So here you go. I'll do the same thing I did with the girls - I'm just opening this up for you guys to comment in, & letting you have your say. Now, please be mindful that what you say will be posted in the ND.com update on the 15th. If you want it in as an anonymous contribution, you have to speak up & mark it as such, otherwise your name goes on it. Now, normally, this would be the part where I show you mine as an example, but since moppety helped inspire this one, we're using hers instead.

moppety :
1. Don't be a girl.
I have girlfriends. I don't need you to be one. I appreciate a little sensitivity here and there, but full on bad poetry writing, tearing up at the drop of a hat, oh look at me I'm a truly modern man gooeyness is not going to get you anywhere. Except relegated to my "friend-that-is-a-boy" list.
2. Don't even think about pushing my head down
Believe me sweetcheeks, if you're pushing? I wasn't going to go there anyway. You've just made it for forever.
3. Carnations. Just say no.
'Nuff said.

Gimme one, gimme ten, I don't care. Things they do wrong, things they do right....go for it. The list from the girls' side of the room has everything on it from tips on what flowers to buy to one girl's postive review of the perfect kiss to some rather specific sexual advice, so don't censor unless it's like, worthy of a Paris Hilton video on the internet, ho'kay? And before you pass this opportunity by, just remember that if you don't bother to say anything here, you've got nothing to bitch about when the girls' list comes out on the 15th.

RTBS
Howdy Claris. In anticipation of few of my fellow, er... fellows participating (prove me wrong guys, please!) these are little more "male" than I truly am. Oh, don't get me wrong, they're actual issues, but I'm trying to make them more "guy" like... trying to balance things out a bit for the men. I'm certainly not as chauvinistic as these would make me seem. Honest. Also - It should not be inferred that Mrs. RTBS is my only inspiration for this list. No. Really. She's not. Also remember... If my trying to be funny with some of this pisses any of the Ladies of the Bronze (hey! That'd make a swell calendar wouldn't it?) off, remember. I'm only kidding. I really don't mean it. Please don't hurt me.

In no particular order...

If we're going out to dinner and/or a movie and we ask you where you want to eat and/or what you want to see, DO NOT say, "I don't care" and then BITCH AND MOAN THE REST OF THE NIGHT (either overtly, or with these annoying little sighs that all of you seem so good at making) about our decision.
If you say "I don't care" and you REALLY want to eat at Red Lobster, say "I want to eat at Red Lobster." Don't be all pissy the rest of the night if we pick Olive Garden. If we pick Hooters, it's okay to be pissy. Anything else... it's not okay to be pissy. You said you didn't care. Don't say you don't care if you really do care. Wow... this only number one and already I' m getting carried away. Moving on...

Shoes.
Do you know how to tell if someone has too many shoes? IF SHE'S A WOMAN! Look... I have one closet. ONE closet. FOR EVERYTHING. I do not have a separate closet JUST FOR SHOES. Jack Lord in a Catsuit! Some of you have shoes left over from EIGHTH GRADE that you can't even fit into anymore! Why keep 50 pairs of shoes you can't even wear again? It's called GOOD WILL (or the garbage). Get rid of them. I mean, I have two pairs of work shoes (one black, one brown) a set of good tennis shoes, a set of knockarounds, and a set of hiking boots. That's five pairs of shoes. That's all I need. In Star Trek V, Captain Kirk asked the eternal question "What does God need with a Starship." In that same spirit I ask, "What do women need with 200 pairs of shoes (minimum)?

Clothes.
See #2 Above (with this additional point) "Honey, why can't you wear this dress? It looks great on you?" - "Oh, I wore that to Carrie's wedding." - "Yeah, well, why can't you wear it tonight? I don't think anyone at Phantom of the Opera was at Carrie's wedding." - "But I wore it to CARRIE'S WEDDING! I can't wear it AGAIN!" What the frell is up with not wearing some of your clothes more than once?

As tough as we seem, when we get sick we turn into the biggest babies you've ever seen.
Stepping on a nail, slicing open our hand with a chainsaw, twisting an ankle falling off the roof ... you'll have a hard time getting us to admit we're hurt, much less get us to seek medical attention. But catch a little cold? We're two years old again. And we expect YOU take to care of us. And not give us any shit about that "pain of childbirth" that you always throw at us either. The "Seven Hous of Labor" Card is SO cheap.

If we summon the courage to ask you - assuming any of us even actually care (just kidding!) - what makes YOU feel good when it comes to sex, please tell us.
Odds are pretty good anything you do to us in a certain particular area is going to work for us. See that compass pointing North? You're doing a fine job. With you? There's no compass. There's no map. We have no clue what we're doing. Oh some of us may THINK we know, but we don't. Not unless you tell us. And be direct. Use words. Not sounds. We've all seen "When Harry Met Sally." A smart man should never trust sounds ever again after seeing that movie. We WANT to do it right. But you've got to help us out a little (or sometimes a lot).

If we ask you if you're mad at us about something and you are? DON'T SAY YOU AREN'T MAD.
Tell us what you're pissed off about. You aren't fooling anyone. We know you're pissed, but honestly, most of the time we have no clue why. You give us too much credit thinking we should know why your mad. We don't. So get it out now so we can hash it over and be done with it. Don't let it simmer until three weeks later driving down Interstate 80 you tear into us out of the blue over the smallest little detail only to quickly change tack and make the entire conversation about what you were mad at us about three weeks ago. We really, REALLY hate that.

Don't give us shit for looking at other women. We're men. We're pigs. It's what we do.
Aren't we married to/engaged to/dating you? In other words, we picked YOU right? So let us look. I guarandamntee that other guys are looking at you when you're with us. Also remember... we're pigs. It's what we do. Just please don't ask us what we're thinking while we're looking. Trust me. You don't want to know. Just chalk it up to nature and let it go.

While there are SOME women who understand the appeal of Sports, here are a few things to keep in mind if you aren't one of them.
Never ask us if a football/baseball/hockey/basketball game we're watching on TV is important.Especially if the word "Playoff" is on the screen somewhere. Never ask us to take out the garbage on 4th and 1. If our team loses and we mope around all day about it, never say "It's just a game." As long as we aren't taking it out on you, let us mope. It's NOT just a game. If a commercial comes on during a show we're watching together, don't pitch a bitch fit if we flip over to SportsCenter real quick to check the ticker. We've got the timing on commercials down to a science. We'll back to what we were watching before the commercial came on. Trust us.

While there are SOME women who understand the appeal of seeing explosions and tanks and guns and fighters and bombers and other things that go BOOM, here are a few things to keep in mind if you aren't one of them.
If we're watching Discovery Wings, don't ask us how many times we've seen this particular edition of "Wings of the Red Star." Maybe there was something we missed the four previous times. If we're watching "Mail Call" on The History Channel (AKA THE WAR CHANNEL) don't ask "What movie has he (R. Lee Ermy) been in? He looks so familiar." If the TV is on and things are blowing up... don't bother us.

While there are SOME women who understand the appeal of watching porn...
(never mind).

Do not us ask us if a particular item of clothing makes you look too fat/skinny/tall/short/old/young/etc.
The only reason you are asking is because YOU think it makes you look too fat/skinny/tall/short/old/young/etc. and you want US to be the bad guy. Whatever you want to wear is fine with us. Really. We don't care. Well, okay, the Catholic Schoolgirl outfit is always a winner, but other than that... well, I guess there's the cheerleading outfit. Oh, and the Wonder Woman outfit. But you never wear those. Simply put. We don't care what you wear. Only how easy it is for us to help you take it off.

Do not us ask us if something makes you look like a hooker/whore/prostitute/etc.
Because while you might actually be dressed a little too provocatively for your own good, we aren't going to tell you. All we're going to be thinking is "Sweeeeeet."

Do not bug us and bug us and bug us about our sexual fantasies and then react with shock and horror when we finally give in and tell you just so you'll leave us alone about it.
Remember... you asked. Also remember... we're pigs. It's our nature. We can't help it.

You know, it doesn't hurt to buy US a drink every now and then.
Or ask US if we want to go out. If the interest is mutual, don't make us do all the work.

Men really do spend the majority of the day thinking about sex.
Oh it's true. It's true. God help us, it's damned true.

That's 15 and I figured I've pissed just about everyone off by now. So I'll simply "Don't hate the player. Hate the game" and take my leave of you.

Also remember... Please. Don't hurt me.

Ogre
Well, you asked for it... I'm sending more than just a couple because I know I'm probably the only guy silly enough to submit anything. I'm going into hiding now.

Cut the coy crap.
Tell me what you want, where, when or how. We love to please you, but you got to talk to us.

Don't lie there like a sack.
Be audible. If we wanted to mount a cold dead fish, we'd all take up taxidermy. And if you're not enjoying yourself, refer back to the first item on this list.

You want equality among men?
Start by paying for yourself and initiating conversations instead of hoping someone's going to walk up to you and sweep you off your feet. That only happens when drugs are slipped into your drink. I pay for children and pets and the only time I expect someone to wait for me to speak before responding is when I'm in charge or when I played Simon Says as a kid. You want to play at subservient, then go fetch your dog collar and stay on your hands and knees. Now roll over.

Get a goddamn check card.
There is no reason to wait until the cashier tells you your purchase total before beginning to fill out a check.

Do not apply makeup while driving.
I repeat, do not apply makeup while driving.

It may take a couple of years to get the hang of it, but try having a conversation without gesticulating.
This tip is especially helpful if you apply it while driving and talking on a cell phone.

Pick up a hammer or screwdriver once in a while.
There are things in the kitchen more dangerous than what's in most toolboxes. Besides, Amy Wynn is hot.

Yes, guys do actually think about sex all of the time.
It might be genetic or something but that would require us to stop thinking about sex long enough to figure it out. We've thought about your friends, relatives, maybe even your grandmother in trying to imagine the two of us at it when we get old. We were undressing women in our heads when we were 7 years old and, as near as we can tell, it doesn't end.

Most men think they can actually handle a relationship with more than one woman.
The only reason most of us don't is because we know on some level that we actually suck at multitasking and ultimately one is better than none.

The only reason we'd rat out your boyfriend/husband is if we thought we could get some from you AND if we think your boyfriend/husband was a complete jackass to get us involved in his love life problems anyway.
Do you really trust the information you're going to get under these circumstances?

What is so hard about reading an electronics manual?
Seriously, we'd give you the remote more often if you'd actually learn how to use it but every time you use it we have to reprogram the settings. And why can't you learn how to program a VCR?

Don't have two different personas, one for women, another for men.
We're stupid, but not that stupid.

Foreplay doesn't really do that much for us.
But hey, if you want to start by yourself, we're all for it.

Strippers and porn stars might be disgusting ho's..
but trust me when I say you might want to try learning a thing or two from them.

Don't ever start a fight or become catty with us while we're with our friends or families.
Ever. It can wait. Period. If you want a third party to intervene, we'll go for counseling.

You want intimacy? You think we have a problem communicating?
Could the problem possibly lie in the fact that guys usually find this information out from someone else you've mentioned this (i.e., had long detailed discussions) with first?

If you don't want to be the lonely old cat lady in the neighborhood, stop at 2 cats.
Find any others a good home elsewhere. When you die, no will know for months and the cats will just eat your corpse to survive.

Mutants, monsters, sci-fi, high action, and fantasy movies have plot elements no less plausible than a Nora Ephram movie. Truce?

Musicians who can play at least one note successfully on any instrument should be given priority over a boy band member's looks.

Seriously, if you're asking me about your fashion choices, you've reached rock bottom.
You look fine. And even if I thought you didn't, I wouldn't say a damn thing.

Opus
Here is what I think women believe about men.
Things women should know about guys:

Basically we don't talk about our feelings.
We drop hints, but usually don't come right out and say it. If we do indicate how we feel it may be a single sentence " yes I really like you" not some deep thing. I had one gal that kept asking me for more information... sorry but there isn't more.

Most guys that I know come right to the point and are not big talkers.
Granted you have your exceptions, but most guys don't talk a lot. Don't take silence as a bad thing.

That by looking at another girl we are not attracted to the person we are with.
Ok big no no when you first start dating, but if someone walks by and I look it doesn't mean I want to jump her bones. Actually I may make some off hand comment about her that we can joke about.

If I say I don't care then believe me.
For example if we are trying to find a place to eat and I say, "I don't care", really I don't care don't try to read anything into it.

Guys are just as scared of women as you are of them.

Guys are flattered when a woman approaches them.
Having never have this happen I'm not sure what I would do.

Nice guys feel like they finish last.
Just because I am nice to you doesn't mean you can walk all over me. It means I'm nice.

Amish Boy

Don't tell me what I'm thinking.
You're wrong. Always. (Unless it's about tits)

I've been watching the same film as you.
I don't know who he is or what he is doing. I'm sure we'll find out.

Never, EVER say: "It's only a game."

There's a reason this is a classic:
If I ask "What's wrong?" and you say "Nothing", don't sulk when I believe you.

Boromir
Not quite sure if this is the kind of thing you meant (Let me know if I've gone completely down the wrong road here), but I'm guessing it may go some way to redress the balance ......

BTW - this is from an email sent to me some time ago .... just thought it was too good to delete ....

Finally a set of rules that make sense. Ladies, please pay attention to these. We always hear "the rules" from the female side. Now here are the rules from the male side. Please note ... these are all numbered "1" ON PURPOSE!

1. Learn to work the toilet seat.
You're a big girl. If it's up, put it down. We need it up, you need it down. You don't hear us bitching about you leaving it down.

1. Birthdays, Valentines, and Anniversaries are not quests to see if we can find the perfect present yet again!

1. Sometimes we are not thinking about you. Live with it.

1. Don't cut your hair. Ever.
Long hair is always more attractive than short hair. One of the big reasons guys fear getting married is that married women always cut their hair, and by then you're stuck with her.

1. Shopping is NOT a sport.
And no, we are never going to think of it that way.

1. Crying is blackmail.

1. Ask for what you want.
Let us be clear on this one: Subtle hints do not work! Strong hints do not work! Obvious hints do not work! Just say it!

1. We don't remember dates.
Mark birthdays and anniversaries on a calendar. Remind us frequently beforehand.

1. Most guys own three pairs of shoes.
What makes you think we'd be any good at choosing which pair, out of thirty, would look good with your dress?

1. Yes and No are perfectly acceptable answers to almost every question.

1. Come to us with a problem only if you want help solving it.
That's what we do. Sympathy is what your girlfriends are for.

1. A headache that lasts for 17 months is a problem. See a doctor.

1. Anything we said 6 months ago is inadmissible in an argument.
In fact, all comments become null and void after 7 days.

1. If you won't dress like the Victoria's Secret girls, don't expect us to act like soap opera guys.

1. If you think you're fat, you probably are.
Don't ask us. We refuse to answer.

1. If something we said can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, we meant the other one.

1. Let us ogle.
We are going to look anyway; it's genetic.

1. You can either ask us to do something or tell us how you want it done.
Not both. If you already know best how to do it, just do it yourself.

1. Whenever possible, please say whatever you have to say during commercials.

1. Christopher Columbus did not need directions, and neither do we.

1. The relationship is never going to be like it was the first two months we were going out.
Get over it. And quit whining to your girlfriends.

1. ALL men see in only 16 colors, like Windows default settings.
Peach, for example, is a fruit, not a color. Pumpkin is also a fruit. We have no idea what mauve is.

1. If it itches, it will be scratched.
We do that.

1. We are not mind readers and we never will be.
Our lack of mind-reading ability is not proof of how little we care about you.

1. If we ask what is wrong and you say "nothing," we will act like nothing's wrong.
We know you are lying, but it is just not worth the hassle.

1. If you ask a question you don't want an answer to, expect an answer you don't want to hear.

1. When we have to go somewhere, absolutely anything you wear is fine. Really.

1. It is neither in yours or our best interest to take the quiz together.
No, it doesn't matter which quiz.

1. Thank you for reading this.
Yes, I know, I have to sleep on the couch tonight, but did you know we really don't mind that? it's like camping.

Godeater
Bitch, don't bite it!

If you don't tell us we won't know, and more importantly, we're not going to care.

Chick Flicks.
Look at what they're called. Then be honest with yourself in regards to our possible interest in it. It's like porn with you.

Kansas
Men are individuals...
your boyfriend is not your ex is not your brother is not your father. Though we cheerfully accept complimentary comparisons.

(re clarriešs comment) Actually, wešre not that stupid.
But there are times that we just donšt care.

We generally donšt mind you checking out the hot guys in front of you.
Probably because wešre busy checking out the hot chicks at the same time, and donšt even notice. We do notice the more blatant comments like, "That elf guy is awesome!", however.*

We worry.
We may not say it, or show it, but we do.

*Hi EverDawn! BTW, you're about the tenth person who has recommended Pynchon to me, so it's about time I took everyone's advice. So the "Yoyodyne" mention might be a reference to a reference? Yow.

~ Various Male Cast & Crew
January 7 - January 14, 2004

~ Other Moments of Insanity...
claris@nodignity.com